Well, I guess that happened. Ah well. I had to go have a bit of a think over it, and I've decided that, it's better it went this way. But, watch, it's going to ding on the KF radar now thanks to Giancarlo.

It's already hit.

Asher, these trolls claim I'm a bad person. So you saying they're right because you had one fight where you both came in hot isn't something I'm going to respond well to. If those trolls are right, they're right about me too. You're entitled to your opinion but I have feelings and that comment hurt

Okay

I think taking a few days and not making the worst possible assumptions is a good idea here

I was wrong.

I’m sorry.

The trolls are not right, because they are trolls. The stuff they’ve claimed about you, such as repeating Schooley’s statements, isn’t accurate. Things they’ve claimed about Poppy aren’t accurate. What they’ve said about me isn’t accurate. They are not right about you, Poppy, or me in general. You are correct. I agree that saying that was hurtful.

My behavior after the ultimate quote-post, particularly towards you immediately, wasn’t healthy, mindful, or mature. It was embarrassing pathological knee-jerking due to my being unprepared and not as developed as I should be to handle a disorder I am responsible for handling. I’ve avoided engaging in anything to that degree for twenty years, but that doesn’t change the fact that it happened now or that you were dragged into it because of me.

I recognize that I failed to honor my positive relationships with you, Pablo, and myself in that series of events. I would be very hurt if someone repaid my patience, care, and understanding by blocking me. You didn’t deserve that. I’ve realized that what happened and a lot of other things are NOT really worth it overall. I’m still struggling in a difficult emotional space because of everything that happened and what I did.

From the second reply on, I proceeded to make poor decisions. And I let myself get fucked, stopping too late as things began to spiral out of control. I fucked up, and I am severely discomfited. I know that the first step towards taking responsibility is to tell you all of this, emphasizing that I’m sorry.

Strangely Asher, Poppy was willing to apologize to you the day after. It took you two and a half weeks to do this and now you want the kindness and compassion you failed to show someone else.

The delay could have been seen as "manipulative". I choose not to see it that way. But the real big problem with what you said to Poppy was it could apply JUST as much to you, in that you take everything out on Pablo that happens to you, so everyone else is afraid to upset you because of what it will do to him.

Lashing out at Poppy like that showed a massive lack of self awareness.

Furthermore, you don't believe in intrinsic self worth. You believe that worth is only given by others.

So shutting me out for over two weeks over your OWN mistake indicates to me, according to your own stated values, that I am not worth very much in your estimation. Your own inner torture was what mattered more, which is strange coming from someone who claims to not believe in ANY inner, intrinsic value.

So that leaves me wondering where exactly this leaves us. Because I cannot accept weeks of silence and BLOCKING from someone that controls hosting of my website, never mind someone I can trust as a friend. Your ethics and worldview seem a bit convenient based on this

I agree that blocking you was inappropriate and a piss poor way of handling what was happening. It didn’t handle anything, it made everything worse, it and the following days were pure pathological response. I wish none of this had ever happened, especially because it has led you to the conclusion that I do not value you. It’s my error that it did not even occur to me that the span of time would suggest that. To me, despite what my actions have communicated, that is not true. My actions didn’t match that. That’s why I’m regretful. You are my closest friend. Our friendship is very dear to me. I let my problems fuck everything up. I let my ugly problems make other peoples lives difficult. I am so sorry.

A lot of thought has gone into this situation. I’m no longer interested in placing myself into direct and undesired situations and arguments with random people who may or may not know me just because they’re allegedly fun, interesting, important to me, or irritate me. I’m no longer interested in pursuing arguments, as they are essentially violence veiled in words. I don’t have any desire in being publicly dramatic via abrasive confrontation. It’s not worth the results. This changes most all of my interactions in a fundamental way. I have reoriented. I don’t want to repeat this. I want to discuss with people now, not argue at them.

To give my input on where that leaves us: my intent is to try to improve this situation as best I can. I want to make amends with you and Pablo. I would like the non-obligatory opportunity to regain trust. I have not done something this drastic for twenty years. I want to hopefully get our relationships to a better place. That’s just me, I can’t put that on you or anyone else.

As I told Pablo, I am waiting for the situation with Nana to pass before responding. Pushing emotions too far does no good

Okay, I understand, I will be here.

It's A LOT, Asher. There are a LOT of misunderstandings. Many things you have said there aren't accurate. And if we are to solve this, we need to go through them all. Because I don't want to be the next person your BPD convinces you is out to get you. And it's a disease. It will do that

I have no desire, motivation, reason, or intention of abandoning you and siding with the stalker.

And when your BPD tells you otherwise, then what?

I don’t know anything about that accusation or why it was made, but I understand what you’re saying.

"MY BPD was right" should have made you realize "Don't hit send"

I think you are right, there are a lot of misunderstandings.

That is what happens when you disappear for almost two weeks and let things fester. I know you had your reasons but there are consequences to choices

It seems to me that I have also not remained the person I thought I was from our conversations in your eyes either.

Can you say that in a way that's more direct, please?

Okay. For starters, I know that I do not believe in intrinsic value. The emphasis is on the intrinsic as a way to deny an objective measure of worth via intrinsicism. I do not think that any measure of worth is only given by others (that results in the same thing as intrinsic value). I don’t believe in any measure of objective worth at all. Only agents can value for themselves, including themselves. I don’t think focusing on trying to be my best within a lacking psyche so that I may then be what I want for those I value contradicts that nor suggests I don’t care about them according to my own value system. This is not a comment on the blocking, which was wrong. The question of whether someone deserves something is also separate in my mind, since there’s no objective worth to automatically imply it. I do not deserve the value I have for myself in comparison to what I believe you deserve, which is more than I seem able to offer (one of my reasons for the former judgment). I thought that’s who I was, but it seems to not be.

You consider that MORE direct?

I thought that’s who I was in your eyes, but it seems not to be.

Do you realize how many huge assumptions are inherent in that?

To me it seems you’ve come to a number of conclusions about me the same way.

Why don't you ask instead of assuming? Because you don't actually KNOW. Hence SEEMS

Who am I in your eyes?

That's a huge question and some acknowledgement of what I just said would help contextualize it correctly

I am a very guarded person (not necessarily private, but guarded), so communicating certain things is difficult for me. This can be to my detriment when others expect it to disappear for whatever reason. It won’t. I’m my father’s son. I don’t intend anything I’m saying to be a trick. I don’t want to contribute to any construction where I am a bad person because it’s not conducive to the relationships I would like to work towards. I am trying my best here. I understand I have not answered two significant questions so far. My big block of text was directly responding to what you said in your first reply after what happened as an example of an understanding I thought we shared, but what was said about that understanding showed otherwise. I want to answer all the questions. I want to address all the things.

When I say “seems,” I’m simply stating that’s how it seems to me and that I’m not committed to it at all. In fact, I’d like to know rather than guess, cause it’s just a guess.

I can only speak from my perspective. However I see my behavior is not necessarily how it is for anyone else. When my base pathological response kicked in, I was angry, hurt, and panicking, as has always been the case. There were so many terrible things flying through my mind that were horribly disastrous, and I didn’t do them because I didn’t want to hurt anyone. I ended up hurting people I care about anyway, and I recognize that. The point here is that in the throes of it, the only person I really want to hurt is myself. Siding with a stalker to hurt someone I care about out of spite is something that might flit through my brain, but I know it would pain me so much to do it that I don’t. Even then. I didn’t block you to hurt you. It did. I didn’t mean it to, so I’m sorry I did it. The idea that this might happen again and that I’d let all of it lead me to actively maliciously hurt someone is appalling to me, especially after twenty years of not doing that. I’d rather shut down and go to the hospital. That’s who I am.

I am bombarded weekly with Borderline shit, and my constant go-to for the past twenty years, per our interview, is to shut down and do nothing and/or beat the shit out of myself. Anything else makes everything so much worse.

I realize there are inherent assumptions in everyone’s perspectives, including mine. “Seems” is a way for me to clarify what I think is a non-committed assumption or a guess. It’s possible it’s not the best way. I always hope my guesses can be corrected, given the right opportunity. I don’t want to hold onto something untrue or assert it as an objective fact. I am open to any corrections regarding what I have to say. I know others may not be, but that’s how I’m used to resolving things. I feel that ultimately, this corrective process, harsh or otherwise, brings me to better resolutions.

I said I was not comfortable going there, Asher

I'm at a loss. I was trying to say that I don't want to go there either as a reassurance.

Them just say that instead of a 5000 word essay full of "I'm not changing. I am who I am" when you know I need things to change

Okay. I was trying to say the opposite of how you have interpreted it. I was stating what I think I am, not what anybody else thinks I am. And I am willing to change and be corrected so that what I think is accurate and what I do is beneficial. I am struggling to communicate with you and I really want to. I have clearly missed something if I'm not listening well. So, I have to now ask, what is it you would like to see happen?

You asked me what I thought. Then you told me what you thought. We're not having the same discussion. You're talking to yourself.

I understand what you're saying, and that what I've said has been interpreted that way, which is fine, I respect that. I know for myself that I would never consciously attempt to do so. I was trying to address “This is reading like ‘did a bad thing’ = ‘am a bad person’ and … your question is a trick …” in that I don’t want to contribute to that either. You and me both. I don’t think you think I’m a bad person. I don’t think I’m a bad person. I don’t want either of us to discuss how I’m a bad person because I’m uncomfortable with it too. I was agreeing with you. I agree. I totally agree.

Then I was trying to answer the question "what happens when your BPD..." and "Do you realize how many huge assumptions are..." I am hurt by these interpretations that I'm feigning anything. I am truly interested in your perspective. That's why I've asked what I'm missing.

I think I’m seeing what I’m missing.

I said I did not want to go into bad person territory. That is exactly where you went

*I would never consciously attempt to tell YOU how I am in YOUR eyes.

Then don't ask for my perspective when you really want to give me yours. It's deceptive

So you're not interested in my perspective then?

Right where I said I did not want to go

I agree with you on that. I'm sorry I commented on it. I agree with you.

Asher

I have boundaries too.

And you want them respected, don't you? So respect mine

Okay fair.

Well then start being more direct and take one thing at a time. No more philosophical sophistry

"Furthermore, you don't believe in intrinsic self worth. You believe that worth is only given by others.

So shutting me out for over two weeks over your OWN mistake indicates to me, according to your own stated values, that I am not worth very much in your estimation. Your own inner torture was what mattered more, which is strange coming from someone who claims to not believe in ANY inner, intrinsic value."

You're very smart. You happy? Doesn't make you right

I'm not happy.

Your father was smart. Look where he ended up. Because he didn't pay enough attention to anything but the messages coming from the darkest pits in his own mind

Okay, fair.

It's an insult to MY intelligence to be talked down to in that way. It's not my job to point out errors in formal logic structure because you shit the bed on twitter. Cut it out. That's epic bullshit,

Those are your words. I didn't say them. They ARE right there. I quoted them.

Yes let's look at them

I also responded directly to them.

Furthermore, you don't believe in intrinsic self worth. You believe that worth is only given by others. - That is what I understood you told me. The conversation may have been incomplete, but you DID tell me that

And I have corrected that misunderstanding, because if that's what you understood when I said that then it's my fault, but it's also not accurate.

Correcting someone is not a great way to show you're sorry, my dude

I also said "I'm sorry," "I'm wrong," and "I'm so sorry," and "I wish this never happened," and "It did [hurt someone I care about]."

You REALLY don't see how fucking off for nearly three weeks and leaving Pablo to clean up the mess makes it seem like the only person you really care about is yourself?

I can see why it could seem that way, and I respect that. From my perspective, it is not accurate. I care a great deal about you, as I've also said, which is why I'm here.

I don't CARE if it's accurate at the moment. This is an empathy exercise. If you don't want people to think that, stop doing it, because that's the reality of disappearing for that long

If I said that to you right now, how would you feel?

Oh you clearly have NO idea of the shit Pablo has said to me in this whole thing

No, I really have no idea. Pablo doesn't tell me about your conversations with him.

Yeah he transfers information pretty selectively and I've had words with him about that. I told him to stop trying to fix it 4 times

Maybe I don't always have an identity, but I have a sense of self worth independent of anyone or their thoughts. I didn't internally collapse because someone else thought ill of me. I split after the quote-tweet, not before. I was in the process of splitting and collapsing over what I had mistakenly invited to happen. I could not handle any discussion or criticism regarding what happened while split, which I recognized. I shut off all avenues and any possibilities that might encourage me to interact while collapsed and splitting. Should I have said something? Oh fuck yes. I got it wrong. I really really really should have said something. I'm sorry I didn't. I'm really sorry. I've apologized for that mistake. I can speak more about what was going on with me, but I'm now very uncomfortable with doing so because it doesn't seem important to you. And it doesn't need to be important to you. But that's what happened, and that's how it is. I don't have any problem having self-worth.

"It doesn't seem important to you" NO WRONG

I'm glad it's wrong.

The problem is that you are fucking busting boundaries and being too aggressive so there's no space to give a shit because I'm too busy defending myself against that sort of bullshit

Okay, fair.

Seriously bruh?

My viewpoint is passive aggression? I have explained what I mean when I say "seems." You don't have to take it that way, but it doesn't negate my explanation.

Not okay, Asher

Stop what?

Stop baiting me to soothe you

That is a HUGE assumption on your part about me.

NOPE

Like HUGE

WRONG

Then explain why it isn't, please.

I'm analyzing your behaviour not assuming your intents. The structure of your communications is peak bait

"Stop baiting me to soothe you" This is ALL about intent to me. I can't do something in order to accomplish something else without intent.

TO YOU. There is also ME in this conversation

I'm really NOT trying to be aggressive. I have zero expectations on the reception of this statement.

OTHER PEOPLE EXIST. We are not just the shadows in your brain

I also exist.

Zero expectations is BULLSHIT. "You don't want to know?" is an expectation. It's passive aggressively insisting I care. STRUCTURALLY

I'm not trying to insist on anything. I feel that I have actively tried to minimize any insistance.

When you start respecting boundaries, then the good feels can happen. But this middle school horseshit? Nah man. You're not getting what you want that way

I don't need or want an emotional reward.

The only clear thing I have gotten from you in WEEKS is some form of "TELL ME I'M NOT BAD"

I feel the same way, different phrase.

I am TIRED of the leading questions. Cut that out

Okay, fair.

At least you acknowledge they're leading questions. FINALLY

No, I don't. This is why I don't just say, "Okay, fair."

I'm done. I'm so done.

But what I have to say would be too many words, passive agresssive, leading, and full of insistences apparently.

I'm not Pablo. This bullshit doesn't work on me. You don't seem sorry. You seem aggrieved. And I have better things to do than eat your shit

I'm sorry.

Bullshit

How else could I say that?

You don't see the sarcasm?

I didn't mean it sarcastically.

That is not what I asked

I can see it why it would come across that way, but that would be assuming intent.

Again, STRUCTURE, not INTENT

But you're doing it to me!

Nope

I don't get to claim that?

You don't get to tell me what I intend. I don't get to tell you what you intend

I feel that you have assumed so many things about my intent that it's almost impossible now to disentangle them in a conversation like this.

Your feeling is wrong.

If you're not assuming intent, then how can you state why I do things. For example, just now, there was a possible assumption of passive-aggressive sarcasm, but instead of asking if I meant it sarcastically you just act like it was a given.

Is that a real question or a statement formed as a question?

It's question that should've had a question mark.

Because things can be STRUCTURALLY passive aggressive and if you want your communication to be more effective you'll stop and see that side

I really do believe this.

Really?

If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have said it and insisted that it wasn't sarcatic.

Well then you'll listen and change your approach accordingly

"How else could I say that?" - A thing I also said.

Because you haven't been really hearing me. You've been adding and taking away from the things I say and responding to things I did not say

I don't believe I've demanded anything.

Well I do

Yes they are.

You have to decide whether you want to keep this friendship, or win this argument

I don't want to win.

Then BACK the FUCK off

In my opinion, this equally applies to you about me. To back off I will tell you that I've removed myself from almost every potentially dysfunctional interaction right now, and I'm committed to that and to acting in a functional manner. To do that I will attend DBT and continue to work with my therapist. I have no desire to continue a conversation that is volatile if you don't, and honestly I've become incredibly uncomfortable. So, I'll think about things you've said (which I always do) and come back at a later time.

Blah blah blah

Wow

Not fun to be on the receiving end of, is it?

I'm walking away now. That was not okay.

Sorry not sorry

I have not done that.

Bullshit

Okay, I'm perfectly happy to see where I did htat.

Not true

Okay, then I'm perfectly open to see where I did that.

I wish that were true Asher. I really do

It is true, that's all I can say.

You are not PERFECTLY open. Because no one is perfect

At this point you are fixating on precise language instead of meaning. I don't know why you are doing that. But, I'll honor that. I'm open to see where I did do, "blah blah blah." I do not think you think I'm a bad person. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I mistakenly went there to agree with you because I thought that would be reassuring. My mistake. I don't think you have to prove anything to me, just state what you think, which you are.

Fuck off

Ok

You're flooding the zone with bullshit then complaining that you're wet

I am only speaking about what I understand, how I understand it, in the only way I know how to do it. Maybe that's terrible. If there's a better way, I'd like to know. I can't know or do something if I'm completely ignorant of it. If what I've preached has given any impression that I'm not ignorant of whatever it is, then, that is my unintended mistake, but I am. At this point, I honestly am. I have no idea how to analyze a conversation structurally. I will now, fuck off, for now.

Yeah. It's terrible. So do better. I'm not kissing your ass

Great. Where can I learn that, because I don't know where to even start?

LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT YOU ARE FUCKING TELLING YOU, BRUH

I'm listening.

Bullshit

I can't make anybody think or believe anything. I'm very hurt you see me this way. I've caused so much hurt it's unbearable. I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to set rules. I'm trying to meet you where you are.

I am stating what I'm doing. You don't have to see it that way at all, and you don't.

I'd like to know if there's any way I can show that I recognize everything you're saying, and don't want to be that person?

Yeah there is

Please forgive the wordiness. There was so much said.

You are right. I think there have been a lot of misunderstandings on my part. Other people matter. They mattter because they exist and are significant in that. That means you matter because you are a human being. Just like Pablo matters, and just like I matter. It is not up to me, or anyone else, to determine that. It’s just true by its very nature. I’m saying I completely agree with this. You matter a lot to me because, not only do you exist, but you are you. There’s a reason I consider you my closest friend right now, and that’s because I love you as a friend just as much as, if not more than, all of my other close and significant friends throughout my life. I recognize that I have fallen incredibly short in communicating that, right now, I consider you to be the most important person in this conversation. You are because I’ve hurt you, and I have my head so far up my ass that all I can hear is the sophist gurgling of my self-important shit being pushed out by my oh so impressively brilliant peristalsis that I’m not hearing what you are saying.

I’m not lying, but maybe I really can’t say all of this without it being bullshit because of the disturbance I’ve refused to acknowledge that I think, could be wrong, you’re pointing out. I don’t want it to be bullshit. No matter how deficient it may be due to my coming up lacking, I think the best way I can show that I am listening is to state exactly what I understand in acknowledgment.

Please don’t treat this as a statement of what you think. It isn’t. It also is not meant as a judgmental statement nor as a veil for what I feel. It’s only what I understand. I expect to fall short or be wrong somehow not out of nefarious cynicism but because I’m a limited person that can indeed learn a thing or two. This is for you.

It is actually not okay that I’m a disturbed person. I am not to be pitied for that. It is not okay to resign myself to being my father’s son. I need to stop doing that and be better for everyone involved. I am disturbed because I have mistaken malignant self-centeredness as self-worth. I cannot have self-worth if I think I’m a piece of shit. It just doesn’t work. So I don’t have actual self-worth, and that’s the big problem looming over everything. I have a carefully constructed fragile worldview built purely around this deranged concept of self-worth that is decidedly not impervious to others criticisms at all. It can’t be, otherwise I wouldn’t think I’m a piece of shit. To have actual self-worth that is impervious and thus respectful, mindful, and present, I need to recognize that I matter because I exist. I am worthy of love and care no matter what anyone else thinks or says. Only then can I function without bullshit. I must have actual self-worth in a way that’s productive, beneficial, and good for everyone. My actions have confirmed I do not because they are continuously unproductive, destructive, and bad for everyone.

It doesn’t matter what my intent is in saying so many things I say because it’s not about intent. It’s about structure. If I ask a question, I need to be mindful that it sets up an expectation of an answer, even a particular answer because of how dialogues are traditionally structured. If I ask a question it is possible for that question to be aggressively pushing for someone to say something they don’t want to say due to its very nature whether I intend it to or not. I would be aware of this already if I had actual healthy self-worth, and a resultant actually healthy respectful worldview. I would be actually listening instead of being concerned with trying to control the conversation through various insidious structural means, whether I’m aware of it or not, to get the response or information I want.

That insidious control which I can hide, aware or not, behind a lack of intent is what you’re talking about. You are indeed not talking about my intent. You are talking about my aggressive structural abuse which, when recognized, cannot be hidden in such a way.

None of that is sarcastic.

Asher I really wish you'd led with that, because THAT read as sincere. Yes it was a lot of words but you weren't avoiding the emotional elements. You were reading as honest.

Unfortunately Pablo accused me of deliberate cruelty last night, and I don't think I can get over that. It wasn't what I was doing and I don't like all these false accusations.

We needed to get a plan. A real plan. So what happened never happens again.

So I appreciate you truly trying there. "You matter because you are human" is what "intrinsic self worth" means to most people. That it doesn't mean that to you is fine, but you gotta make space for other people's opinions and positions too, not just say "But *I* don't see it that way."

Pablo insists I accused you of lying. That was not what "bullshit" meant. "Bullshit" refers to the boundary busting, the refusal to meet people halfway, and talking around things instead of talking about them. I never EVER said you were lying and I don't believe you were. I believe that you were being profoundly avoidant. I just didn't want to use mental health language.

And yes, "self-important"... I know that's not how you really feel. But trying to solve a problem and a person responds with "intrinsicism"... that is maddening. Dropping Kantian word salad doesn't do any good in those situations

And yes, YES, You can't have self worth if you think you're a piece of shit. You're NOT a piece of shit. No one is impervious to others' criticisms. But... well, for instance, Pablo has said a lot of untrue things about me over the last few days. They hurt. A lot. Having to sit and wait for you to bother to respond while he criticized me for not being understanding enough hurt. A lot. But I was able to stay mostly functional because I do not believe I am the person he says I am. I was not being deliberately cruel. It was tough love. But he saw you cry but didn't see me cry, so he attacked me. This is unacceptable, but I do not think I'm a piece of shit because of that, even though that's a terrible thing to accuse someone of, especially when it's wrong.

Yes, indeed, if you ask a question about the other person's views, following up with your own views on the topic when they have said they are not comfortable talking about it, continuing to push... yeah that's a form of aggression. Someone is going to be upset when you ask a question, then answer your own question, because it comes across as testing someone, not truly being interested in what they think and feel.

Controlling conversations through structure, or tactics, if you prefer, is not a sign of being a bad person. It's learned behavior. It's unhealthy habits, which violate other people's boundaries, and, frankly, make it impossible to understand what you're really trying to say. Things don't stay manageable in conversations when you're throwing in a bunch of things I- or anyone - didn't say.

I told Pablo before I spoke to you that I was not going to coddle you. Because I think you've had a lot of that, and that's not respecting you as a person. You are more than just an extension of your father. You are your own person. You're not responsible for what he did and you don't have to save or redeem him. I don't think he'd want you to drive everyone away the way he did.

Vulnerability is hard, but it's the only way to maintain truly connected relationships. It's hard for everyone, and that's where the self worth comes in. Speaking uncomfortable truths is vulnerable. I was not going to lie and say I believed you when I didn't.

I'm frightened for you, because at this point you really should not still be this stuck. It has to be horrible to feel so out of control and unable to process these enormous feelings. And with the amount of therapy you've had, there should be a better understanding and a better STRUCTURE. And yes, Pablo resents that word, but it's what is going to make things better.

Thank you for the kind words.

They weren't kind they were true.
The same way my past statements were not cruel. Just what I believed to be true.

I just have to live now with the understanding that my "friends" assumed I was being cruel. But I'll deal

I don’t think all of them were true. I also think, having experienced a form of tough love at times, that it was unnecessarily cruel. This is just what believe to be true. I’m still willing to be friends, but we don’t see this the same way.

Something coming across as cruel because someone was hurting and broken and someone being DELIBERATELY or INTENTIONALLY cruel are not the same thing, Asher

No they aren’t. I agree. I wasn’t accusing you of being cruel. I was stating what I felt and believe to be true.

Well Pablo accused me of intentional cruelty. That was the claim

Well I’m not Pablo. So you’ll have to take it up with him.

The two of you are double teaming me so forgive me for getting wires crossed

In disengaging for now this evening. Have a good night.

I'll make arrangements to shift my web services. Good luck to you

If you need help logging onto the portal just let me know.

Please delete any and all records you have amassed of my tweets or other communications. I do not consent to you using them in a vendetta

Why would I do that?

Nope. Pablo is giving me shit for something I said to you. This is unworkable

No, seriously. Stop that. You don’t control everything and aren’t the arbiter of the truth. I have no idea what Pablo is doing. How can I go on a vendetta if we’re friends?

You're right, I don't control everything. But I do get to set boundaries and Pablo is clearly reading your screen so no conversation is going to stay between just us.

I tell Pablo about my conversations with you unless you tell me not to. I didn’t have any idea you didn’t want me to do that. You’ve never mentioned it, even when it’s happened before. I get to choose what I share with my husband. If this is a problem, then I won’t share with him without asking you first. I’ve really meant to disengage, but you keep engaging.

This is why I'm clearly saying what information I do not give you permission to use. Because if I don't clearly say don't do it, I have no one to blame but myself if you do

Ok. We’re on the same page then.

So are we clear?

Yeah.

There was no ploy there, Asher. Just an attempt at clarity

I don’t understand.

Do you even want to?

Is that a structural aggression or an honest question. The answer is yes.

It's an honest question. I'm not going to assume anything then get accused of intentions I don't have again

I feel like I’m being pulled into an argument I don’t want to have.

I feel the same. So what are we going to do about that?

Well. I answered your question. Yes. I don’t want to argue. Saying “do you even want to know?” is “peak bait” to me for an argument. I’m quite aware of it now.

Okay not my intention I'm sorry it came across that way

Me too. I can’t sleep because I’m so anxious even after taking a Lunesta that had zero effect.

I am in the same boat

I am literally not the person you described in your tough love session.

Asher, I didn't describe you. At least not deliberately. I don't know what you're talking about there

Not really. I’m baffled. I respect what you said. I’m also not the person you describe in your last large reply.

Asher... are we clear on the boundary I have set? Please. It's important I am sure that you understand that

Yeah. Do you want me to tell Pablo about that boundary too so he’ll stop doing whatever he’s doing that’s instigated this?

Yes please

I have a boundary too. I’m not coming to you for therapy, just friendship. Please don’t act like my therapist.

I'm not intending to. That's fine. I accept that. In fact, that was the good natured intent behind a mistake I made. Referring to things as "bullshit" instead of something like "avoidant". I overcorected. I accept that. But my intents were good

Why are you talking about how you were doing that when I’ve set that boundary? I feel like it’s immediately getting crossed.

What? Not intentionally

Great. Neither did I.

You said don't talk like a therapist

Don’t even try to be my therapist.

Asher, I am not intending to do that

Great.

So can we please not assume anyone is doing anything mean deliberately? All three of us? Please?

I didn’t intentionally cross any one’s boundaries through out this whole thing.

Yes I accept that. Did you notice I admitted a mistake?

Yes. Do you want a reward?

No I just want to make sure you saw it

Yep!

Asher, I'm sorry I miscalculated, okay?

Ok

I meant no harm. I was going based on what I thought you wanted but I got it wrong

Yes.

Do you want to know what I was working on, or should I just skip that?

Yes I do want to know.

Well, one, I was trying to avoid anything remotely like therapy speak. I also recall you telling me something along the lines of you prefer people to just tell you things. Don't coddle you.

I understand what you’re saying. It hurt and shocked me enormously because I found it, as said, unnecessarily cruel even though apparently it wasn’t because you insist it wasn’t. But, now I understand what was going on so I’m going to regard all of it as being inconsequential meanness to try to teach me something. That’s just what I believe about things. Don’t worry, I completely respect and acknowledge you had good intentions, even though structurally speaking, it was one of the most harrowing conversations I’ve ever had with a close friend. I felt like I was being criticized by the worst of the trolls and my intelligence resentfully belittled. All good though. 👍

I'm assuming that was sarcasm?

No

Okay I'm glad I asked then

I’m being as direct as I can be. Short and to the point as desired.

If I said I found you not talking to me for weeks unnecessarily cruel, could you see the point?

I apologize. I didn’t intend it to be. I had to make sure that I was healthy for the welfare of everyone else. I understand if I then, as a human being deserving of love and respect, completely deserved to have it inflicted upon me so I could truly understand your pain. Especially because I wasn’t listening and had my head up my self-important ass. Worked out well. I truly understand the pain I caused you.

Again, do I take that statement literally? Because it reads as angry to me

Does it?

Well I asked you if you saw the point. Not your opinions on the point. So it's like a step got skipped there

Oh I didn’t realize I was not expected to give opinions on the point. I don’t want this to turn into a conversation with myself so I’ll stop with that. Yes, I think I see the point, but is it a justification for what happened?

Okay things are moving too fast for me here. You do seem angry and I'm fine with you being angry at me. It's 12:42 here so I'm going to go soon.

There was no revenge intended on my part. I wasn't trying to make you hurt because I was hurt

I understand. Have a good night. Talk to you tomorrow.

That got much bigger than the point I was trying to make, but I'll take the loss

Okay. I understand. Take care of yourself.

I just wanted to deal with the business stuff first, but it looks like that's not going to be possible. I need a break from both of you, until such time that this can be discussed calmly, without a lot of anger, and without unnecessary accusations and distrust.

Again, I'm sorry I hurt you and I completely accept that you do not forgive me. All the best. Be well and goodnight